VECO Online Guests: Harris van Beek & Eric Sidoti
Bright Futures and You!

Bright Futures for young Australians
Summary 3 of 3: Principals part 2
by Janine Bowes

summary 1 · summary 2 · summary 3
overview

This summary is adapted from the posting to the bright-futures discussion list on Wednesday May 24, 2000. You may notice that some headings have been introduced that never appeared as subject lines! If you need to follow up detail, then use the archives "threaded by date" and look for the person and date as listed in the summary.

As noted in the last summary, the discussion threads that emerged from the Principals’ postings included:

- Preparing students for workplacements
- Professional development of teachers
- Teacher involvement in industry links

These threads have continued along with some new ones namely:
- RTOs, QERTOs and Auspicing
- Organising Workplacements (timing and scale) (was teacher
involvement in industry links) 
- Curriculum frameworks supporting SWL and RPL in schools
- Non AQF Vendor IT qualifications 
- Cross Sectorial Approaches to achieve economies of scale

General Comments

Jacqueline Shimeld (ASTF, May 18) reminded the discussion of the evolutionary nature of programs and how it takes some time (usually 2-3 years) for programs to really “feel that they have a good understanding of what this is all about and how to do it”. The vision may always be there but the task and challenges in the establishment phase are different to those later on as the territory becomes clear. As with good wine, there is improvement over time.

Roy Rogers (May 18) stressed that getting a student out of the classroom and into industry is in itself an excellent outcome and Joy Short (May 18) asked:
"Shouldn't all our courses include a vocational component? If so, how?" 

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Preparing Students for Workplacement (cont)

David Balfour (May 18) raised this issue of supervision of students in the workplace. This was picked up by Roy Rogers (May 18) who outlined simple management processes to address this and related issues. Joy Short (May 18)
added that the preparation of students prior to workplacement is crucial in minimising the risks as is checking that the employer has appropriate policies and procedures in place.


Roy Rogers (May 18) asked about support mechanisms for students to air concerns, and review the processes and procedures leading up to their workplacements, suggesting that industry ought to be involved in this process. Joy Short replied (May 18) that in her school this happens in classtime on return from workplacement and is also a structure used with Year 10 work experience students.

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Professional Development of Teachers

To add to the previous summary:
David Balfour (May 18) challenged the notion of “teachers returning to industry” as being arguably too generic and not specific to a given industry.

Steve Harrison (May 19) picked up on Jude Nettleingham’s earlier posting about adequacy of the “industry recognition” and summed up by stating “ If we want industry-based education and training properly then we have to recognise that at the most we can only be an equal partner with the other (real?) experts

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Organising Workplacements (timing & scale)

Joy Short (May 17) responded to earlier comments about the consequences of teachers visiting student sin the workplace by outlined the pros and cons of the various timing models (blocks of time, day a week). Whilst the challenges remain the results over time confirm that it is worth the effort as destination surveys reveal a very different picture to the pre voc ed days with very few students undecided about their future pathways. Mike Frost advocated the original TRAC concept of a day a week rotated through 4 or 5 workplaces through the year but acknowledged that industry response varied. He suggested that employers are generally open to suggestion to help fit school needs.

In Dene Milner’s May 19 posting, he raised the issue of some Principals only allowing workplacement outside of the academic term. Whilst exact numbers are not known, the subsequent postings by Joy Short and Jo Lynch (May 21 and 22) suggested that this would be very much the exception rather than the rule. 

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RTOs Qertos and Auspicing 

Curriculum frameworks supporting SWL and RPL in schools

As a consequence of the discussion about timing of workplacements, the timetabling implications and the necessity to adequately prepare students for workplacement, there were several postings citing curriculum frameworks that
support workplace preparation.

- Mike Frost (May 18) described the Tasmanian course titled “Vocational Placement C” a 150 hour Board accredited course that recognises the learning that occurs on the job as well as recognising teaching and workplace visit time. He outlined the flexible approaches possible under this structure, noting that it addresses many of the challenges but also acknowledging the cost Refer to tjjjjj

- Tony Harkness (May18) described the Queensland Board of Senior Secondary School Studies course “Certificate 2 in Workplace Practices” which is accredited under delegation from VETEC. This course allows customisation at various levels. He described the course content which includes the workplacement requirement which can combine part time work, industry placement and enterprise activities. He also referred to the Certificate 1 in Work Education and Certificate 1 in Work readiness that are already being utilised. The course is likely to be available for purchase later in the year from the Centre for training Materials, Level 5, 30 Mary Street, Brisbane.

- Jo Lynch (May 18) described a similar subject accredited both senior secondary years in Western Australia as well as the trialling of the assessment of skills in part time work (mentioned in an earlier posting)

(Ed what about the other states and territories???)

Adrian Howard (May 19) described a project he had conducted for the WRAPS ITAB to produce a recognition kit for Certificate 1 in Retail. Students with part time jobs in the retail sector would enrol in a short course in which they would assemble their evidences that would ultimately be submitted for assessment. 

Ann Morris (May 19) stated her opinion that students working in retail are ideal for school based traineeships and went on to describe how her cluster in Qld has converted 30 part time jobs into Certificate 2 Retail Operations for students with growing acceptance of this type of training from employers and good outcomes for students. Sonja Bairstow asked for more detail about the processes involved and Ann (May 22) described how the employers had come on board and in fact driven the process. Andrew Marnie (May 23) added that similar successes had been achieved from the local Vocational Education Advisor for Education Queensland working with local retail chains citing 40 to 50 school
based traineeships being implemented through this mechanism.

Deborah Mosely (May 22) commented on the issue of RPL and the abundance of skills that senior students develop in their part time employment. She went on to criticise the assessment processes undertaken by many teachers and cited this as a barrier to schools receiving recognition of their training as equivalent to that provided by other RTOs. Mike Frost (May 23) implied that Deborah’s observations are not the case across the board and that in support of the RPL process, a resource guide to RPL has been developed by VETNETwork and will be available shortly. 

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Non AQF Vendor IT qualifications

In listing areas of ongoing concern from a school's perspective, Wayne Craig (May 12) had asked 
"are there programs (particularly in the IT area) that do not sit in the AQF but are worthy of implementation in schools.

Ken Price (May 21 - posted on his behalf by J Bowes) responded in a posting that described his findings from a study tour in 1998 that looked at this very issue. He listed such programs that operate in the USA and gave an analysis of the systemic issues that work against such programs being offered by schools despite the good outcomes for students where their employability is very high. He described certification issues, commercialisation of schools and lack of
training paths in Australia that recognise both vendor and AQF certification. Wayne Craig (May 23) replied with specific details of the vendor programs currently offered at Box Hill, their costs and associated issues.

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Cross Sectorial Approaches to achieve economies of scale

Joy Short (May 18) again raised the issue of cross sectorial approaches and whether there were examples of real benefits to be had. 

Mike Frost (May 19) commented on the inevitably of less individual monitoring when the scale is large. He also cautioned against allowing students to find their own workplacements as the quality control is almost impossible to assure thus risking the devaluing of programs. 

Dene Milner (May 18) outlined the EIEP program in the Yarra Valley where a cross sectorial approach has enabled the delivery of VET programs shared between schools and other training providers. He noted that numbers have doubled from
1999 to 2000 to a current 500 students being placed across 13 VET programs.

Steve Berry (May 19) cited ASTF funding as one reason for a single coordinator being responsible for hundreds of placements and described the anomalies caused in areas of dense population when the requirement to reduce duplication fails to take account of the specific advantages of smaller scale operations. He emphasised the critical importance of Bright Futures implementation and methodology in this regard. 

Christine Shakya (May 21) described the partnership that operated with Inner West Catholic Schools in Sydney, outlining the important role that teachers in the schools play to ensure that student placements go smoothly. She challenged some of the assumptions of ASTF funding models stating a case for student numbers to be a significant factor. issues.

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Conclusion

The three guest principals were formally thanked on May 19 and as you can see continued to contribute beyond that date. 

The third and final phase of the Bright Futures discussion with Eric Sidoti began on May 19 with a focus on looking ahead and attempting to come up with some concrete ideas to guide the implementation of the vision described in Bright
Futures. 

summary 1 · summary 2 · summary 3
overview

First published June 27, 2000. Last modified June 30, 2000.